#666 From Refugee to Royal Honour: Toby Gorniak’s Leadership Journey

What if the very thing you ran from became the foundation of your leadership?

In this powerful episode, Toby Gorniak MBE shares his extraordinary journey from teenage refugee to being honoured with an MBE at Buckingham Palace. His story is one of resilience, creativity, and leadership reimagined.

Toby reveals how he created The Gorniak Method—the first Hip Hop leadership practice in the UK to be recognised at PhD level—and how it empowers anyone, anywhere, to unlock their hidden genius. With over 40,000 hours of community service, Netflix features, and global recognition, Toby’s message is simple: leadership belongs to everyone.

You’ll discover how adversity can become purpose, why creativity fuels leadership, and how unlocking your own story can transform your community.

If you’ve ever doubted your power or potential, this episode will remind you—you already have what it takes.

🔗 CONNECT WITH TOBY

Website: https://tobygorniakmbe.com/

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Transcript

Intro | 00:00
Business insights on talking with the experts. Hosted by Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:10
Hello, welcome to Talking With The Experts. I'm Rose Davidson, podcast coach and indie host, helping entrepreneurs simplify their voices, Today we're diving into Toby Gorniak's story about going from refugee to MBE and his leadership journey. Welcome Toby to Talking With The Experts. 

 Toby | 00:31
Hello, and thank you for having me. 

 Rose | 00:33
A little bit about you, Toby. You're a refugee turned global leader, speaker, change maker. You arrived in the UK homeless and penniless. And today you stand as a person who has dedicated over 20 years to unlocking the hidden genius in others. You created the Gorniak Method, the first hip hop. Leadership practice in the UK to be recognised as a PhD level, blending creativity, resilience and leadership to transform lives from classrooms to boardrooms. You've been honoured with an MBE at Buckingham Palace for services to young people. You've given over 40,000 hours to your community and received national awards for your work with ADHD and autism inclusions. You've done Netflix films, you've done university schools and international conferences and your mission is to show that every single person holds pure brilliance, sometimes buried by poverty, trauma or expectation and your life's work is to keep unlocking it That is truly an amazing story. Tell me a little bit about why you went to the UK in the first place. 

 Toby | 01:43
Originally I was born in Poland. I have a Romani background. In Poland, the racism, it's really big. Especially in Europe and especially when it comes to the Roma community, we're disliked just for the reason that we just exist. And growing up being a young boy, there were a few occasions where verbally and physically I was attacked. And especially when I was 11, I got put into hospital because I was attacked by three males. 
 And then there was another incident that was coming along and my mother said, well, Next time, we might not be so lucky. So we have to leave. 
 Yeah, so then my mum actually took the action and decided to pack her bags and literally leave. There was a lot of stuff happening around the area and we knew it was coming closer and closer. 
 So my mum was really worried and she thought I might not be so lucky next time that my son might survive. So she decided to take us and literally leave. 

 Rose | 02:45
If you've got a movie out at the moment, it's called that boy. Which has just won, I don't know, an amazing amount of awards internationally. Yes. Tell me a little bit about the movie. 

 Toby | 03:00
So the movie happened because this researcher Who researches Roma history, heritage and anti-racism and what happens around the world. So he found out about me and about the community projects and everything I've been delivering in the country. 
 So one day he said to me, can I come and visit? I said, yeah, please come down and come and visit the place. 
 So he came, visited the place. He was amazed. And that was it. Then he went off doing his research again. 
 And then four to five years later, he rings me up. And he says, Toby, I think you're the only person that I know would be willing enough and brave enough to have this conversation with this person. And I said, who's this person? He said, he's an ex-neo-Nazi. And I went, wow. And first of all, I was like, you know, I need to think about it. 
 So I spoke to my wife, had a conversation with my wife, and then something kept inside of me going, well, have that conversation. It's something you always wanted to know. And my biggest question in my life was since I was a young child, why? I always ask the question, why? Because I remember there was a day on the market here me and mum were shopping And as we stepped in, it was off. Next we were next in the line in the queue as soon as we stepped up to the guy to buy a fruit and veg he kind of shushed us off and he said go away you dirty gypsies And I remember walking away being five years old and I said to mom, How did he know? How did he know that we are Roma gypsies and She went, it's your skin. And it's something you're going to know and recognize and feel for the rest of your life. And that's when I went, wow. And it just hit me being five years old. And I remember asking, but why? But I'm a good boy. I didn't do nothing. And to me, it was like, when you've done something, I get it. People might be upset with you, but I haven't done nothing. I was just a little kid. And that question stayed with me forever. Asking the question why and then being 11 years old being attacked by these skinheads that question was just always there why so when the opportunity arrived I went Well, maybe it's time. Maybe it's time to get some answers. 
 So I went, had that conversation. And during that conversation with the researcher, he said, well, he just wanted to research. I said, no, we're going to do this and then make it into a film. Let's make it into a real deep, honest conversation. How are we going to do it? I said, don't worry. I've got a team. I've got a crew I work with. Whenever we produce a film, this is how we're going to do it. 
 So I directed the entire film because I wanted to be raw. I wanted to be honest and I wanted to be real. And we didn't know each other. I didn't know nothing about the man except that he was an ex neonati. That's all I know. The research was like, you know, do you want to know what he looks like? Do you know what he does for a job? Do you know about his family? I said, no, I want it to be raw. I want two people to meet at the table and have an honest conversation. And I'll tell you what, it was one of the most deepest conversations I ever had. 

 Rose | 06:02
Yeah, it sounds really intriguing. I can't wait till it comes to Australia because I'd really love to watch it. I think it would be absolutely fantastic. Now, reading a little bit about you, I found out that your first business was you bought a YMCA. 

 Toby | 06:17
Yes. So we, in our city, there was a huge YMCA that shut down, a huge building. And we had two dance studios, you know, six offices, change rooms, showers, units, more spaces. It was a huge building. And this is where we ran our first company, which was called Street Factory. And it was literally all about giving back to the community. 
 So we are teaching dance, resilience, confidence. And it was just an amazing journey. 

 Rose | 06:46
And so what prompted you to buy it? To me, you know, why? 

 Toby | 06:54
So for me, it was this. I always taught in schools and colleges and I always had to go from space to space and I always was looking for something to call mine. 
 Somewhere where I felt We could stay and people could come to us. But it wasn't just that. It was for the young people to... Have a safe space. Because that's something I always wanted as a kid, a space where I could just go every day and just dance seven days a week. And literally that's what the place became. People came and danced seven days a week. There wasn't a day the place wasn't being used or people weren't dancing, people weren't training, we weren't doing shows. It was something for the community where they felt they belonged. 

 Rose | 07:35
And that's really important. 
 I mean, it doesn't matter what you're doing in life. It's a human condition that we all feel like we need to belong to something or to belong somewhere. And I think what you did was absolutely amazing. And Joanne, your lovely wife, was supportive of your decision. 

 Toby | 07:57
Amazing. Me and Joe, I'll tell you what, I am so blessed and I can't say it enough. I wouldn't be who I am today without her encouragement, support, love, her wisdom. And I mean, she does the job with me and her work together, me and her travel together, me and her every day together. People say sometimes don't you to get bored. I said, would you get bored working with your best friend? You never get bored. You just have a laugh and enjoy life every single day. And that's how blessed we are that we are literally best friends and we get to work together and we get to do everything together. It's just incredible. And all our traveling and everything we're doing, it's just so much fun. 
 And then we get to have a little breaks in between. It's just, yeah, really amazing, but really blessed to have what we have in our relationship. And for me as a person, because I always want to do something different. I always want to do something new and I'm always on the go. To have someone who supports you, encourages you and believes in you. My God, you just feel like you're an unstoppable person in the world. 

 Rose | 08:56
Absolutely. Yes, I think. And I'd like to talk to you a little bit about resilience, Toby, about, you know, you've gone through some trying times and I mean, you know, getting the YMCA and there would have been some challenges with that and getting people together. 
 So, you know, how have you built up your resilience? 

 Toby | 09:16
So one of my biggest things I've discovered due to my resilience is that it started really young. And it started with my Roma culture. 
 So something in my Roma culture, I was always told, keep your head up, be proud, remember who you are. And that's something that was really important, remembering who I am and remembering that the word Roma means something, means strength, means resilience, means power and strength. I think due to my mum being a single mother, My grandmother. Everyone around me in my life were females who always encouraged me and pushed me to be better and do more and achieve more. That was my kind of resilience training from a very young age. If I fell over. It'll be get up, brush your knees up, go again. It would be this old fashioned thing, you know, are you bleeding? No. Did you just fall over? Yes. Come on in, get up and go play again. And it was this encouraging thing. Which in some moments, maybe, you know, what I would have loved to hug. Yes. 
 You know, but. That kind of toughness of come on in brush it off you're okay And then you check your knees, you think, actually, no, I am okay. 
 And then you go again, those little things are, Nothing drove me to understand myself more and understand the situation that I was in when I was a kid, that, you know, I am okay. And I can do it and I can give it another go and I think that was my drive from a very young age but I think that heritage and culture was very important during that journey this kind of magic you know when people tell you stories And my grandmother, my mother taught me stories that you know our people have survived so much so you come from really incredible strong people and that's in your blood And I think that belief It gave me a different sense of empowerment, a sense of pride and sense of, you know what, you can do it. 
 So just get up and go again. 

 Rose | 11:18
Yeah, and I think that's really wise for business owners too. I mean, you know, if you fall down, get up and just keep trying or try. Not doing the same thing, but just changing your view on something or just changing direction slightly can always be bring benefits if you fall down and hurt yourself. 

 Toby | 11:43
100%. But the biggest things in my life, I've learned that everything is just a lesson. People are afraid to fail. I fail every day. But to me, it's not a failure. It's just a lesson. I'll just learn how to do things better. That's all this is do you mean if i do something and i mess it up i go okay Won't do that again like that. And do it differently. And for something that I'm really proud of in my life is whatever, you know, learn the lesson. And don't repeat it twice. Because I learned from a very young age that when mum says, "Hot, hot, don't touch the fire," and the fire is hot, I'll only make that mistake once. I won't go back there again. And I think because of that, again, I learned to learn lessons very fast. And I learned to learn from these things, which is very important. 
 And then not to repeat them again, but do them better. What can I do to do it better? And I think one of my main motos is, And I say this a lot to a lot of people I work with that are mental and I say, can you do it better though? 
 So yes, you've done it. But could you do it better, Dom? And 99% of the time they can't. 

 Rose | 12:52
Absolutely. And I'm sure that the kids that you've worked with, you know, really value your input because of the type of person that you are and you give them encouragement all the time to do better and be better. 

 Toby | 13:09
100%. The encouragement, you know, the support, all of that is important. But there's something even more important than that. Just be loved for who you are. Do you know what I mean? That's the main thing I give all the people I work with, that's kids or adults. I'll just love who you are. I appreciate who you are. I acknowledge who you are. I don't want you to be anything. I just want you to be you. Because in the world today, you know, we all try to fit in. We all try to adapt to the world around us. But there's nothing more beautiful and amazing when you see a human being just be themselves. And if you're quirky, be quirky. If you're different, be different. If you're crazy, be crazy. Whatever that thing is that you are. But be it 100%. And there will be people that are going to love it. And there's going to be people that dislike it. But either way, you will be happy because you're truly yourself. 

 Rose | 13:57
Absolutely. No, I totally agree. I used to be myself quite often and I used to get in so much trouble for being myself, especially in the workplace. Toby, tell me a little bit about the Gorniak Method and why it's so successful. 

 Toby | 14:16
So the Gorniak Method is very simple. Most simple things are the most greatest things in the world that we use today. The Gorniak Method is based on the five principles. They're the core principles of everything that I do. They're based on respect, Peace, love, unity and having fun. That's the five. 
 So the five core elements are built on how we work, what we do and how we develop. One of the things I've learned during my Gorniak method for the 20 years of working with all different types of people. We need foundations. Once you have foundations, it's something you always go back to. 
 So life can go up and down. But no matter what, you have your foundation, something that you stand on. Which is really important. And sometimes the only reason, like recently I was working with someone in the business side and they said, Toby, why isn't my business working so well? I said, because you're not working well. He said, well, what do you mean by that? I said, you need to work out who you are. Once you work out who you are and what you live by and what you stand by, everything else will fall in place. 
 So we worked together for three months. And after three months, he rings me up. He said, Toby, my bank account doubled. I said, well done. I said, did your life double? He said they tripled. I said, now that's the most important thing is when you can look at your life and think I'm happier, I'm more peaceful. I've got more love in my life. Now that's the key to everything. Because sometimes we focus too much on our finances. And yes, I know people that got money. I do. But... Are they happy though? And the biggest thing in life is happiness. And we all see happiness in different circumstances and we see it differently. But the main foundation where most people would like is have enough money in the bank, yes, so you pay your bills and do everything else you need to do. But to have some peace at home. To have some love at home, to have some joy at home. Those are the things that we search for and that we really work hard for. And that's the key to the Gorniak Method. It's giving people those foundations. Once you give people foundations... That can achieve anything. 

 Rose | 16:22
Absolutely. And I think that, you know, in business and in life, those foundations are really important. 
 I mean, you know, you want to go to work and you want to be happy and you want people that support you. And the same is at home. 
 You know, you want your parents to support you. You want your friends to support you. 
 So, you know, it's important. You don't really have anything and you're lost if you don't have those foundations around you or underneath you. Yes. 

 Toby | 16:51
Yes, not 100%. And I think a lot of people, especially today, I bet not sure. Because social media says you have to do this and you have to do that and you have to do this. 
 Yeah. What do you want to do? That's the biggest thing I say to people. 
 So we do a lot of like Joe's amazing on social media. So she does social media training for people and especially for like personal brand. And they said, yeah, but this isn't fashion and everyone's doing this. I said, yes, you're not everyone. You are you. 
 So what do you stand for? What do you want to talk about today? That's the most important thing. It's not talking about what everybody else is talking about. What is important to you? And when you truly become you, everything else just always falls in place. But it's hard. And that's the biggest thing I'll say to people. It's hard, but... It's hard not to be you. And it's hard to be you. 
 So it's up to you what hand you choose. 

 Rose | 17:43
Yes, I agree. And I recently put a post up yesterday about I've started about how many how come there's so many experts in the world telling you how you have to do things a certain way or you know one way or get this deal and you know it's going to be that you're going to learn everything and I thought why are they all like that why can't they just let people be themselves and teach them around their personalities because we're not all the same. We're not all cut from the same cloth. 

 Toby | 18:14
No. And the biggest thing is I'll say this. If you look at the world and you look at some of the biggest influencers on social media, Why are they so big? Because they're so original. Not because they're copying, because they are really unique in the way they portray themselves and what they say and how they say it and what they do. And it's real to them. To them, it's everything they do. 
 So they're not just saying that because somebody else is saying that. They're saying it because they are believing in what they're saying. That's the biggest thing. 
 So it isn't just to fit in with everybody. It's to tell everybody their side of the story and how they perceive the world to be. 

 Rose | 18:53
Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. If you want to find Toby, you can find him on his website at tobygorniakmbe.com. And he's on LinkedIn as well. 
 So, you know, chase him up there and he's on Facebook. So look for him there too. Toby, I'd love for you to share some words of wisdom with our audience today, because I know you've got lots of it. 

Toby | 19:18
Okay, so something recently that really come up was this. We live in a very busy world. And I would like you to ask yourself this question. Are you being you for you? I, you being you for the world. And if you need to ask this question and answer this question for yourself, do you know the best way to do it? Close your eyes. And tell me, who do you see? 

Rose | 19:45
Me, I say me. 

 Toby | 19:48
It'll be there. 

 Rose | 19:49
And that's the beauty about... Absolutely great. 

Toby | 19:53
Advice. Do you know what I mean? For me, I do that very often. I'll close my eyes and I'll say, So what do I see? Who do I want to be? 
 And then I see that person. And I think, yes, I'm in the right direction. I'm going in the right way. 

 Rose | 20:06
Yeah, I believe I am. It's taken me a long time, but yeah, I'm finally heading in the direction that I want to be. 
 So it's all going good now. 

 Toby | 20:15
Amazing. Amazing. 

 Rose | 20:17
Toby, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you and thank you so much for joining me here today. I look forward to chatting with you again soon. 

 Toby | 20:26
Thank you for having me and hopefully soon we might catch up in Australia. 

 Rose | 20:30
Absolutely. I'd love that. 

 Toby | 20:32
That would be amazing. 

 Rose | 20:34
Bye-bye,. 

 Toby | 20:35
Thank you. Peace and love. Bye-bye. 

 Outro | 20:38
You've been listening to Talking with the Experts with Rose Davidson. The podcast that brings you real stories, bold insights, and strategies that work. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or your favorite podcast channel so you never miss an episode and dive into our full library anytime at talkingwiththeexperts.com. Until next time, keep learning, keep growing and keep talking with the experts.