#634 Inside Publishing: How Creativity Fuels Books, Brands & Business with Zena Shapter

What if creativity was the key not just to art—but to authorship, leadership, and business?

In this inspiring episode of Talking with the Experts, Rose Davidson chats with award-winning author, editor, and inclusive creativity advocate Zena Shapter about the powerful intersection between storytelling and strategy. Whether you’re an aspiring author, a creative entrepreneur, or a coach looking to publish your message—this episode is filled with actionable insights on how to get your work out into the world.

Zena shares her journey as a global writing mentor and the founder of a creative support business that serves clients in Australia, the UK, and the US. With years of experience helping writers prepare their manuscripts for publishers—or successfully self-publish—she breaks down the often-intimidating world of publishing into steps that feel accessible, empowering, and exciting.

You’ll learn:

• What authors need to know about today’s publishing industry
• How to build a creative business that is both heart-led and strategic
• Why inclusive creativity matters—and how to advocate for your own voice
• How to motivate yourself and others to start writing (and finish!)

Zena doesn’t just teach writing. She lives it—through mentoring, editing, designing books, judging literary awards, and speaking at libraries, councils, and festivals. Her passion for creativity is infectious, and her approach to publishing is practical, empowering, and deeply human.

Whether you're writing a novel, a business book, or blog posts that matter, this conversation will help you unlock the creativity within and gain the tools to turn your ideas into impact.

📚 Want to bring your story to life? Tune in and discover how creativity becomes a catalyst for change.

🔗 CONNECT WITH ZENA

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zenashapter/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ZenaShapter

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ZenaShapter/

Website: http://www.zenashapter.com/

📌 PROMOTION: http://zenashapter.com/portfolio/when-dark-waters-burn/

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Transcript

Intro | 00:01
Welcome to Talking With The Experts. Here we discuss all things business, by business owners, for business owners. Here is your host, Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:11
Have you ever thought about publishing a book and getting creative? My next guest, Zena Shapter, is going to share with us how we can just do that. And she's going to share the insights into book publishing industry, strategies for running a creative business, and how to motivate others to be creative. Now, Zena writes from a castle in a flying city hidden by a thundercloud, reaching across age and into the heart of storytelling. She is a multi-award winning author of science fiction, fantasy, speculative and contemporary fiction. She loves conjuring journeys into the beyond and unusual. She's the author of books such as When Dark Roots Hunt, When Dark Waters Burn, Coming “Towards White” and ‘Into Tordon’. And when she's not writing, Zena loves movies, frogs, chocolate, potatoes and living with her family among Sydney's beautiful northern beaches. Zena, welcome to Talking With The Experts. It is such a pleasure to have you and to learn about how we can be creative and write our own books. Thank you. 

 Zena | 01:16
Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure to be here and share what I can. We're wonderful. 

 Rose | 01:24
So have you always had a penchant for writing? 

 Zena | 01:28
Always. Bye. My mother said, that when I was a baby, the doctor was holding me and I reached for a pen in his top pocket. 
 So... From a very young age, obviously, that's... A bit of a joke, but then, When I was maybe 11... Mike. My teacher accused me of plagiarism because a poem I'd written was just so good. It was about owls and hedgehogs, but she didn't think I'd written it myself. But, you know, the early signs might be there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you find your way into writing easily. Or organically. So, I did do English literature at uni and then I worked in publishing for a bit. But then like many of us in our early 20s, I thought, want money. Want to travel, I know I'll go be a lawyer. 
 So I actually went off and became an intellectual property solicitor for many years, but then realized that I had strayed too far from my path and went back. Into the creative industry and I've been there ever since. 

 Rose | 02:46
Right. Interesting. And, you know, the intellectual property thing would be most helpful when you're writing books. 

 Zena | 02:53
It's most, and especially when dealing with clients. So a big part of my week, is obviously writing my own works, but helping other people with their works. And, say at least once a month, I'll come across a client who has put lyrics In their work and that. You don't have permission to copy. You copied and pasted those lyrics, didn't you? 
 Yeah, you can't do that. That is... You're right, infringement. 
 So unless you have permission... Listen. Paraphrase the lyrics. Or just, Find another way to say what you want to say. And the intellectual property solicitor comes out at that point. 

 Rose | 03:35
Yeah, that's interesting. A lot of, A lot of people cut and paste, not just lyrics, but passages from other people's works and put them in their own with without using quotations or you know referencing or any of that sort of thing so You really have to be mindful is same as podcasting. In my program I’ve written an e-book about the actual the laws that you need to follow as a podcaster because it's you know you're up for all sorts of things if you don't, watch yourself. 

 Zena | 04:11
Absolutely. And, you know, it's to protect the creators themselves who have put a lot of time and effort and years of experience into creating whatever that thing is. And it will be the same for you if you... Become an author or a podcaster, you'll want your creation to be protected as well. And that's where those protections are coming from. But it's a hangover from school and from uni where, you know, you can protect. You stay. Other people's creations. In education, to further your knowledge and in that space, kind of more allowed. 
 And then we move into the... You know, the adult world. And you forget that you're in the adult world now and yes in that yeah there are rules there's laws. 

 Rose | 05:11
Absolutely. So, you know, one of the, some of the steps, Zena, that we've As a business owner, we have heaps of knowledge, you know, and we think, you know, What if I write this book and help other people? What are the sort of steps to take to get that knowledge down on paper? 

 Zena | 05:32
Excellent question. Well, the first thing is to think about your reader, your markets. And to think about what they might want to read and benefit from the most. And sometimes, especially when you have a certain level of experience in your certain age, the temptation can be to put everything you know in one book. Whereas Given the life experience you have and the knowledge you have, you've probably got more than one book in you. 
 So thinking about your reader and breaking, I'd start with breaking down what you want to read gift that reader through your words is the first step. And thinking about How long of a... That would take. And then, like I say, you might have several people Perhaps each book might have a slightly different theme, but they're all on the one page. Thanks. 
 So let's say you do that. You think about the reader and they can only take on board so much at any one time. 
 So I'm going to write a book about this aspect of my experience. I'm going to listen to what Zina has said and not cram everything from one book. 
 So now... You have to develop skills. Obviously. And you have to... You have to practise writing. 
 So before you come to structuring that individual Just... Start writing anywhere. Start by writing an introduction as if you're talking to a reader and explain what the book is meant to achieve. 
 And then in that process, you will discover like your top 10 things that a reader might take away. And then strangely, that might become the 10 chapters that you may then Right. And you'll start to organize your thoughts. Right. 
 So now we've got just some writing on, you know, in a document or on paper. Now it is time to structure. And this is the same for fiction, by the way. With fiction, you might have a grand idea about a story that you might want to tell. And in a way, again, for nonfiction or for, you know, when we're talking about, you know, whether it's business experience or life experience. We're thinking about an individual story that a reader will want to hear. Once we have that grand idea, it's always time for structure. 
 So you have this overall view, then time for structure. It's story structure. No matter what the And. You. In a story structure, you head towards a climax. Now, the climax in fiction, we're used to movies and books all having a moment of high tension and high drama. We're familiar with the phrase climax. How does that work in nonfiction? 
 Well, there's still an overriding question that you're trying to help the reader understand. Explore or possibly an anxiety that the reader might have that is making them want to buy your book in the first place. 
 You know, in the commercial world, we think of unique selling proposition and all that kind of positioning. So it's the same thing in writing. What is the thing that is going to keep your reader up at night? In the fiction world, it will be the mystery, the action, the romance. In a nonfiction book, it will be how do I solve this problem? Problem. That's been presented to me. By the author. And If you fail... At Overcoming that problem. Ben. What would be the highest point of drama and tension. And that's kind of how you present your work to the reader as well, because the reader has bought your book because they agree with you. They agree that this particular subject is a problem. They want to resolve it. And to not resolve it would be awful and so that's the highest point of dramatization so You aim towards that, but you break it down into little steps along the way. And you start, very much at the bottom of the drama and the tension with just the basics. 
 And then once you've outlined the basics, you can become more detailed and And Developed. Kind of more, subplots if you like, subtopics. Of the bigger picture. And that's just a really good basic storytelling way to structure events. Any book, even when we tell a joke. Jokes all head towards the climax. They start with some background. Then you've got some detail in the middle. You've got your punchline at the end. 
 So that's a really good way to just start writing anything. 

 Rose | 10:51
Absolutely. No, that was really well answered too. Thank you for that. It's like step by step and how the process was really well done. Delivered I guess in better words I can't think of anything it was I really enjoyed and on those things that you explained because it is like a joke, how you say, you know, different steps of telling a joke. And to tell a good joke, you need to have that climax and the punchline. 
 So, yeah, it made heaps of sense. There's a... People are often off-put by the cost of publishing a book. What is your advice on doing that? Because I know self-publishing is a thing, but it still costs a lot of money. And, you know, you're not guaranteed of getting sales. 
 So you might be putting good money, and getting a bad result. 

 Zena | 11:48
Absolutely. So let's say you now have a draft of your story. What would be the next steps and what are the costs involved? 
 So the first thing you're going to want to do is not spend money. And that is by giving it to friends, family, colleagues, whoever you can find to who is willing to read and give you feedback. Ideally, they would be someone who is interested in the area and who maybe has read something similar before. And they can give you, Nice, free. Feedback. Great. Good. Do that as much as possible. Don't give it to everyone all at once, though, because You might give it to one reader and they might come back with, but... X, Y, Zed. 
 And then you'd be like, right, let me fix that. Then you can give it to another person with that fixed and see what they spot. Everyone's going to spot. Something different. And you will know when it's almost ready for publication, when the feedback you're getting is becoming more minor. You can pay to do this process as well. And I certainly did this in my own journey with what's called a manuscript assessment. 
 So with my first... Novel towards white. I think I got like three or four manuscript assessments and each one of them was over a thousand dollars. And that was way back. That was like, 15 years ago, so now it would be more. But each manuscript assessment is a professional assessment on the work. This was fiction, of course. And Each one got me a tier up, a level up. I was learning how to write full-length fictions. And so it was like paying to do a course. But specifically on my writing, which I'm a very hands-on person, so... I wanted the feedback rather than doing the course. I wanted the feedback on my course. Own words. 
 So let's say we do that stage either for free or we pay. What's next? 
 So, In an ideal world, you would pay for an editor. To them. Professionally make it ready for publication because what's worse than not making your money back is Putting yourself out there and getting negative feedback. Feedback from readers because that would just be so Especially if you're a professional and you're thinking about writing a book to share your experience with others. 

 Rose | 14:27
Upsetting. Absolutely. 

 Zena | 14:36
You're not doing the book. So much to make money on the book, but for it to establish and champion your reputation as an expert in your field. And you will make money through getting more consulting work or a better job or more talking gigs. 
 So the money might come from not directly from the book, but from other sources. But you need the book. As, you know, a leafing board to bigger and better things. I'm an editor. I'm a very good one, by the way. - And so then let's say you... It's all polished. It's ready for publications. 
 So then what are the next costs? Print costs can be expensive. But you can shop around, there's lots of printers. Getting into an e-book form is The cheaper routes. You just have to format your... Document with style sheets there's heaps of advice on the internet on how to do that though you can pay someone like me to to do that for you but you can totally do it yourself and then you have to get it out there a lot of people use amazon and kindle I thought. I tend to advise clients to use an aggregator service who does both print and ebook but not the specifically Amazon, such as IngramSpark, or other aggregators like them, where you can just upload your files and then they distribute to all the online stores. But, yes, you don't have to buy – thousands of copies of your book all at once. To save on costs, upfront costs, you can just stick to print on demand. And so there are ways, there are costs, and you can go as professional as you like. With those costs or you can try and keep costs down or do a mix of the two to try and make it affordable. But you're absolutely right, it's a big off-putting thing Yeah. Money, cost. 

 Rose | 17:02
It is, That would be helpful. 

 Zena | 17:03
Yeah. If only there wasn't such a thing as money. Bye. 

 Rose | 17:10
- I think it's the end. If you go to a publisher, do they look after all those costs? And maybe you might explain what an ISP is. 

 Zena | 17:20
Yes, of course. So an ISBN is a number that your book has, that no other book has. 
 So if someone were to type that number into a search engine on a book site or a, you know, either a book site. Seller or a library or any of those kinds of search engines. Only your book will come up and booksellers and libraries, they use ISBN to keep track of all the stock and input things into the system and know who has what. Very important thing to have and every book needs to have one. Amazon have their own special system. I-F. A-S-I-Ns, but they're not internationally recognised outside of the Amazon system. 
 So that's why ISBNs are good. You can buy them from here in Australia from Thorpe. Bow Cup. You can buy them individually or en masse if you want. You *Cough* excuse me, if you are self publishing, But yes, if you're going to a publisher, They will sort that out for you. 

 Rose | 18:33
So the ISBN is the number that we need to publish our book on an international scale. Is that right? 

 Zena | 18:42
Yes, and here in Australia, everywhere, we all use the ISBN system. 

 Rose | 18:48
Right. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Now, what are the next steps after the book's published and then you've got your launch, development, You know, what's the best way to do that? You do it as a... In person or do you do it online or can you do a mix of both what's the best way to go about that. 

 Zena | 19:07
You know, people... Authors these days, I see them having several launches. All over the place, everywhere and anywhere. I'll even see people who have a launch and I'll be like, Wasn't this book out two months ago? Yes, but... Couldn't get to Melbourne then. 
 So this is the Melbourne launch, or whatever. So the sky's the limit with promotion and marketing, because that's how we get readers to find their way to your work. And, you know, that is the hardest thing, which is why a lot of publishers these days prefer it, if you have an already established audience. Network, if you are an expert in a certain area, or if you're famous, they'd love that because it makes the marketing so much easier for everyone. But if you don't have that, then it's a matter of trial and error. 
 Some people will say social media is the way to go. Some people will say no, social media doesn't do anything. 
 Some people say in-person events are the way to go. Or advertising or going on podcasts. For, getting book reviews and it's probably a little of everything. It depends how much time you have, how much effort you have. There are, again, there are marketing specialists who can assist with book promotion. Who will do it kind of all for you. None of it is, Anything you can't do yourself with a little bit of self-education. But then... The time that you're spending doing that self-education is that time that you should be spending on your core business in a way that is allowing you to. Have the book in the first place. 
 So. It's hard to say, but I would, my advice would be, Follow your heart. And that might sound very kind of anti-business, but there's no point being on social media if your heart isn't in it because you People will tell that you're just being functional, that you're not really into it and it's not authentic. And it's the same with giving a TED talk or going to conferences and giving a talk. Your heart has to be in it. You have to be able to stand up in front of people, be authentic and talk with authority. And if you can do that, that's great. Do it do as much as possible go everywhere you can and do it because then People will connect with you and they will want to connect with your book. But if that's not you, then maybe try something else. You could try doing a recorded thing, a recorded talk, and putting that on YouTube and doing that instead. 
 So you have to look at what skills you have. And how you can use them for your purpose. And this is something that's good with just creativity and making money. From creativity in the first place. I don't know if you've heard of Ikigai, Yeah. 

 Rose | 22:21
The concept. 

 Zena | 22:24
I love the concept of, I could be pronouncing it wrong. But for any listeners who don't know, it's this concept of doing what you love, what you're good at, what you can be paid for and what the world needs. Is that all sounding familiar? 

 Rose | 22:43
Yes. 

 Zena | 22:45
So, When it comes to looking at writing a book, obviously you're going to write something. That aligns with what you love. Whether it's fiction or non-fiction. Ideally, it will be something that you're good at. 
 That's why you have authority to write it. So then we come to these other two interesting questions. Does the world need it? And can you be paid for it, which is what we're talking about now. What the world needs, well, that's that assessment we were talking about earlier, about thinking about the read-up. What does the reader want? What does the reader need? And if you can find an angle that will help lure them into your world in your book. Fiction or non-fiction. Then yes, the world will need it. Then can you be paid for it? 
 So that's where the marketing can come in and that's where The other... Services that you offer or the other aspects to You as a person can come in and help with that bit. 

 Rose | 24:02
Interesting. Very interesting. Yes, it's food for thought, Zena. Food for thought. If you want to find out more about what Zena does or what she offers on her services, you can find her on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram, and on her website at zenachapter.com. And what is When Dark Waters Burn? Is that your newest book? 

 Zena | 24:26
It is. It is a science fantasy. It is set on a different world to this world. It has carnivorous trees, giant water ants, but it draws parallels with our contemporary experience. It was actually inspired by What people were saying about Australian property prices is I'll never be able to afford a home of my own is something that I hear from young adults or, you know, in their 20s, 30s. And so I created a world that was mostly swamp with tiny pockets of land to resonate with this. Difficulty of finding land and so Yeah, it's a science fantasy adventure with thrills, action, drama. A little bit of romance. That hopefully will resonate with us. Bye. Especially Australian roots. Read and Bye. 

 Rose | 25:25
Wonderful. You can find that on Zena's website. 
 So go and check that out. And I'm sure there'll be instructions there on how you can download a copy of that. Zena, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today and sharing with us how we can get our book out into the marketplace. 

 Zena | 25:44
I think I could have talked for a lot longer about this process, but thank you so much for having me. And I hope that listeners get something out of our chat today. 

 Rose | 25:56
I'm sure they will. I'm sure they will. Thank you again. Bye-bye for now. Thank you. 

 Zena | 26:00
Bye. 

 Outro | 26:01
You've been listening to Talking With The Experts, hosted by Rose Davidson. Make sure you have a look at our back catalogue over at talkingwiththeexperts.com. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss out on any episode. We look forward to your company next time.