#615 From Teams to Triumph: Aligning Leadership, Marketing & Ops with Rebecca Vickers

How do you align leadership, marketing, and operations for real business growth?

In this powerful episode of Talking with the Experts, I sit down with Rebecca Vickers—VP of Operations at FMO Media—to unpack the strategies behind building high-performing, inclusive teams and synchronizing marketing and operations for greater business impact.

Rebecca brings over a decade of experience in leadership, digital marketing, and operations. She shares how to create environments where people thrive, systems work seamlessly, and leadership aligns with both strategy and values. From fostering collaboration across departments to empowering your team to rise, Rebecca's insights are practical, refreshing, and immediately actionable.

We dive into:

• How inclusive leadership fuels productivity
• Why alignment between marketing and operations is crucial
• What it takes to build team cohesion and long-term engagement

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by siloed departments, inconsistent messaging, or misaligned goals—this episode will bring clarity and a plan of action.

Whether you’re a founder, operations lead, or team manager, Rebecca's perspective will help you transform your leadership style, unify your team, and deliver better business results.

💡 Tune in to learn how people-first leadership is your biggest business advantage.

✨ CONNECT WITH REBECCA

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebeccacuretonvickers/

Bad Bosses, Great Leaders Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2334379

▼ ▼

Transcript

Intro | 00:01
Welcome to Talking With The Experts. Here we discuss all things business, by business owners, for business owners. Here is your host, Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:12
Effective leadership is and how to build high-performing teams. My next guest, Rebecca Vickers, is going to discuss with us leadership, marketing and operations, and team building. Hello, I'm your host, Rose Davidson from rosedavidson.com.au. Rebecca is a dynamic professional with experience in both digital marketing and operations. As a VP of Operations at FMO Media, she thrives on coaching her team, cultivating client relationships, devising successful strategies and developing effective systems. She's a firm believer in empowering others. Rebecca's goal is to foster stronger leads, cohesive teams and well-rounded individuals. Rebecca is a proud alumni of Loyola University in Maryland and Villanova University as well. Rebecca, welcome to Talking with the Experts. It's lovely to meet you. 

 Rebecca | 01:06
Thank you, Rose. You too. I'm so excited to be here with you. 

 Rose | 01:09
You don't seem all that old, excuse me for saying so. How did you end up doing what you're doing? 

 Rebecca | 01:16
Well, good Loom filter, number one. But thank you. 
 You know, I've been blessed with a lot of great opportunities over the last 15, 16 years of my more formal employment and had the benefit of having really great leaders to show me the way and guide me. And then having some maybe not so great leaders who didn't really know what they were doing either. And I give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they ever really knew what they were doing. Really had anyone to teach them, but they showed me the what not to do's when it comes to leadership and leading a team. And, you know, along the way, whether it's been in my theater and film career, my fitness and sort of health pursuits, and then my marketing and operations, which has sort of been one of the through lines of the last decade plus, it's been a great opportunity to be able to be trusted with helping build systems and make improvements and being that entrepreneur for a company. 
 Yeah. I take the compliment. It's very kind of you. I always say that God's not finished with me yet. I'm still learning and growing and I have a lot more to learn, but I've had a lot of great experience just by being open and willing to grow within companies and seeing where I can add value to. 

 Rose | 02:34
Yeah, adding value to any position that you're, you know, working in is really important. And I guess that, you know, a lot of employers don't, at take... A lot of heed with that. 
 You know, they sort of overlook the people that are adding the value and look up to the people that are, you know, And sucking up to them basically. You. 

 Rebecca | 03:01
Yeah, there's a, difference sometimes between, showing and telling and how are you showing that you're capable for leadership and showing that you are providing the value and telling and maybe saying all the right things, but actions and words don't really align and maybe even behavior. Doesn't align either with what you say you want and what your pursuits might be and then your behavior and your work ethic alongside of that too. And one of the things that I just come back to is the idea of servant leadership and how can I be of service wherever I'm at? And when it comes to working in a team, You know, whether you're officially a leader in title and promotion or not, we can all be leaders of ourselves and of the work that we're doing. And it really does start with us. And so I've started with my, you know, with myself, how can I improve and have that sort of Kaizen constant seti improvement mentality in how I'm working and seeing it as I'm in competition with me and only me so that we can all grow and. 
 So, yeah, not every environment might think or feel that way. And that's why I feel like it's very important that whatever company you're with, you are very much aligned with the values there and that there's a cultural seat at the table for you, not just a skills and abilities seat. Otherwise, it can be very challenging to try to make inroads and make that kind of progress and be recognized for the value that you do bring. 

 Rose | 04:37
Absolutely. No, I couldn't agree more about, you know, what you've just said. I think it's really important that all those things that you are aligned with the values and of the business and that you bring to the table your best self. I think that's so important. I want to ask you, Rebecca, about some strategies for creating and managing high performance teams in remote settings and in hybrid settings as well. How do we do that? What are some actionable steps that we can take? 

 Rebecca | 05:09
Yeah, it's challenging, right? There's a privilege to being remote, and I absolutely love it. I know that it's not for everyone, and so you have to understand that. For some folks who are a little bit more acclimated to it can be a lot easier, especially if you're really good at time management and you're organized and you have a personal home environment, or maybe you rent space outside of the home, but you have some kind of environment where you can focus and you can be able to do a lot of things. And be your best self. 
 And then there are other folks who might be thrust into a remote or hybrid situation and they actually prefer being in an office. So You don't want to dismiss them or I feel make them feel they're isolated from the team, but either or whichever sort of area you fall into, you can still feel a little bit of that isolation. 
 So and it can be harder for managers and anyone who's leading people, specifically leading people, not just themselves. It can be a little bit hard to build that relationship and that connection and the accountability. And I think. I feel like a lot of folks who aren't maybe as skilled or aren't open-minded opening themselves up to some of the different strategies and tactics out there, default to a micromanagement stance. And while there's a level, a higher level, I think, of communication that's necessary and required when you're remote, ultimately, the stronger and simpler that your systems are for holding your team accountable, and of course yourself, the easier it's going to be to have that connection with people. 
 So, you know, I like to start with the idea of you can't create in chaos and you have to have structure. And this goes for any business, right? But making sure that you have very clear processes as the umbrella for your SOPs, your standard operating procedures, and making sure that when you're onboarding new team members, there's very clear structure. There's an element of some automation, which is great to save leadership time and energy and save the person who's onboarding. Aborting from having to be on Loom or on any other kind of Teams platform, because that can get very exhausting. Zoom fatigue is real. 
 And then there's an element where you need to have some of those online, we'll call them in-person, even though you're not physically in-person, but real-time calls where you're helping coach that person online. Having them see what you're doing and then practice and then teach back to you what they have learned and making sure that you're providing them a communication channel. We use Slack, for example, at FMM Media, and our Slack channels are very organized and focused. We have a couple of team channels, but even those team channels where it might feel a little bit more like a free-for-all, it's very clear what the focus and what the topics are in that channel so that people don't get lost in communication while ultimately trying to be those uber communicators. 
 And then having some other guidelines when it comes to communication as well. So one of our rules is making sure that we are not side chatting or direct messaging, if you will, any other team members about the work that you're doing, because we can miss things in direct messaging. And I've seen it happen where two team members fail to include other team members in the appropriate channel and then work gets lost, clients get fired. Lost along the way, their deliverables are mishandled. 
 So we're very clear about how we want our team to communicate. We're very clear about how we show up for each other and our clients too. 
 So making sure that we're visible on camera. Not to say, Rose, that we don't have times where, you know, I need to turn my camera off, the dog's barking or give me a second, I need a quick bio break. We're all human. We're very reasonable with that. But I actually read recently, too, that teams who are visible on camera in remote situations, they perform 80 percent better than teams who shut their camera off and are disconnected visually from their team members. 
 So that's something that we've always held. So, you know, if I'm going to break it down, a lot of it comes down to communication. Being really consistent in how you operate as a team doesn't mean that you can't change because change is a constant, but being consistent and being reliable with your team too. 
 And then having really strong time management. And Rose, this would go for hybrid, this goes for in-person, it goes for any mode of work, right? It's really important that we're managing our time well, because time is one of our greatest resources, and it's finite. 
 So we need to make sure that we're managing our time well. That we're adding the value, we're not burning out. And I hope that most people would feel this way that I don't want to spend any more time in meetings than I absolutely have to. 
 Some of us might like meetings and that's okay. But I want people to be able to have a break from that as well. 
 So evaluating where's your time going, where's your team time going and being as organized as possible because you are working with folks who are in different locations, you're working You don't have necessarily company issued computers or at least the ability to see everything that's going on in their computer. So ensuring that there are standards for how you organize files and any type of cloud sharing activity. I know that's a lot and we could go down any path, but what are some of your thoughts on that? 

 Rose | 10:47
You know, I agree. I think having you know, really strong processes in place and having those SOPs is really important, especially when, you know, you have new, staff coming on board I think you know and you know having those standards that are across the board and that everyone understands them and aligns to them. Because, you know, things, as you say, things go missing. There are, you know, chances of, you know, losing clients or customers because, you know, someone's, you know, forgotten to do something. But if they've got an SAP in place or a process, you know, they understand what's required of them. And, you know, and working remotely can be, you know, quite challenging for some people. 
 You know, because, you know, they may be used to, you know, being in the office and, you know, have that human interaction where working remotely can be, you know, quite daunting because, you know, you're sitting in an office or you're sitting in your home space or remote space, you know, solo and so sometimes you know you need a sounding board and you don't have that. You know, when you work remotely. 
 So I think that, you know, having strong processes is really important. 

 Rebecca | 12:07
Yeah, and that's a great point too. You know, having community, it's very possible to build a strong community online. That's part of what digital marketing is about, right? 
 So when it comes to your team, making sure that they feel seen and appreciated, and that can be something as small as a company shout out when they're doing something really great and acknowledging that, you know, making time for one-on-ones and making sure that they know who they can go to. When they are feeling that isolation, I'm always going to encourage anyone to get pet if you do work alone or at home, if that's for you. And not everybody has the means to do that. But having at least something in your space, whether it's a pet or some comfortable items around you, fun desk and fun backgrounds that can make a world of difference to when you're creating that working environment and really making it your own.

 
 Rose | 13:03
Absolutely. No, and I think, you know, it's, You know, for those that do work remotely and that isolation can be, you know, a bit draining on your mental health as well. 
 So, you know, the leaders in the team need to be aware of that and they need to look for signs that, you know, someone is being impacted by that situation. That isolation period. 

 Rebecca | 13:25
Okay. Yeah, that's another great point. We have what are called, we call them digital detox days. And every six months, we ensure that team members take an extra two days off over a weekend, we give them a timeframe for when they can choose that. And that's for practical purposes. Otherwise, Rose, we'd have everybody off and nobody would be available.
 So we stagger it. And it's from everybody's start date.
 So it's technically staggered for the most part anyway. And that gives everybody a chance to choose. Everybody a chance to decompress, go off, do something fun, you know, be with family, whatever it is, it's absolutely up to them. Of course, what they do with their personal time. But that's kind of helped build in that culture of health and mental health and awareness that we have to make sure we're taking care of ourselves. We can't pour from an empty cup. And especially when you're in a digital marketing role as well as a digital workspace, it can get very draining when you're looking at screens all day and you're interacting with people online and your work is online. It can get very challenging. And the other thing, one of the things I do for all of our onboarding team members is make sure that they have a lunch in their calendar when we're setting up their calendar, first and foremost, because that can be a big question. Even I remember even jobs in person and wondering, What's the lunch standard? When does everybody do we all take it together?
 You know, how do we all go out to people eat in? And so I want to make sure that team members know that taking breaks, eating an actual lunch, however you do that it's okay and that it's recognized and it's important having little breaks throughout the day.
 Some other things I like to be mindful of, too, just the holiday season, whatever holidays you're celebrating as a company or giving people off for in unison, making sure that in those shorter weeks that the work is manageable and that you're not overextending your team. That's not to say we're going to be perfect and catch everything, but in those types of weeks, especially a week between Christmas and New Year's Eve, I like to limit our calls as much as possible. If people want one-on-ones, then absolutely, I'll be happy to meet with you, but I would rather give you as much of your time back so you can work on your most important essential job duties and have a little bit more of a relaxing time, less time on camera, and produces, I think, a happier... Environment and less stress in what is somewhat times a more stressful period, whatever is happening, work or personal life.
 Rose | 16:05
Yeah, and leaders and managers need to be aware too. I mean, in Australia, we have a law here that... And. Employees and team members are allowed to disengage. 
 So when they, you know, if their job is nine to five, From five o'clock onward, the employer, unless it's absolutely vital and critically important, are not allowed to contact their team member or their worker to do work outside of their capacity. A normal work hours unless it's been a prearranged agreement. 
 So, you know, do, what are your feelings on that? So, you know, it comes to the weekend, the person's off. And the employer says, can you do this by Monday? Or what are your thoughts on that? 

 Rebecca | 16:53
Yeah, so... It does depend on obviously the country and what sort of labor laws are in place and then what the situation is too. 
 So for most of our team members, they're salaried exempt and they can and sometimes they do put in what we call overtime hours. And it's really about the work. 
 So because it's a remote environment and there's a lot of privilege there, I don't know if a team member is taking extra two hours off in the afternoon. Afternoon to maybe go to the park with their kids or they're getting house chores done throughout the day if they are using some of their morning or afternoon time for that and they're getting their work done and we track what a reasonable amount of work is we time block our calendars so that we have that fit into our calendars and if something happens where we're They schedule a dentist appointment. They know that they have to get their work done within reason, of course, but having that remote flexibility means that they're a little bit more motivated to make sure that their work is getting attended to. Nothing is falling by the wayside because we have that flexibility in both directions. I would say absolutely. 
 You know, I think it's important to make sure that team members know if you are messaging on Slack that you're not expecting an answer right away. If it's after a certain time frame, my team knows that sometimes my team will respond back to me because we know sometimes our leaders are up late working because they're running the business and they need to put in the extra effort to make sure people are taken care of. In digital marketing, especially in our sort of formative years as a startup, we would put in some of that extra time because our clients needed, especially the clients who are in hospitality. And so that was very, we were very upfront with that because we want to make sure people coming into the team knew, hey, we have clients who work over the weekend. They barely get any days off. 
 So keeping that in mind, you might get some communication from them. And that's where proactive communication comes into play. 
 So. If anyone on our team is taking off, they're up for a vacation or they're on some type of maternity or paternity leave, I like to make sure that we have proactively planned out what a system is to make sure that the work is covered. They can go off and have a stress-free vacation or time off, and we have everything clearly communicated and handled. And when you're a little bit more proactive with that and your time management, then you don't get into that trap. Of having to work later or longer hours or work over the weekend. 
 And then it becomes more so a choice if you want to get caught up versus getting stuck in a cycle of constantly having to work to catch up because you weren't managing your time middle of the week. And some of the examples that I've run into are A lot of times when people come to me and they say that there's too much work, they can't handle it. Oftentimes it's because I'll go to their calendar and I'll find they haven't been managing their day today and they haven't been clear with what their priority is for that day. And when we lose sight of what our priority is, and when we lose sight of what our week needs to look like and what is actually within our control, that's when we can fall into bad working habits. 
 So to your point, I absolutely agree. I think it's really important for your team to know that just because you're emailing them at nine o'clock at night, because that's when you choose to maybe do some extra work as a manager, as a leader, they're not necessarily obligated to respond to you. Because I know there are some industries like medical field or lawyers. There are some folks, at least in the U.S., who are working later, and they might have different kinds of obligations. I like to share that in digital marketing, there's very rarely an actual emergency, definitely not a life-threatening emergency. I'll knock on wood because I haven't seen it yet. But when it comes to that type of work, we absolutely can be very proactive, and we can be very intentional with our time. And communicate to your team what those expectations are at the very least so they know what kind of environment they're getting into and they know what kind of working dynamic. And that will help clear up a lot of frustration, anyone who might be disgruntled about the dynamic of a team or of an office. 
 And then you're going to be able to have a much healthier work environment too because people aren't burnt out. They don't feel like they're on the clock 24-7. And that Rose, I would add, and you can probably imagine I could go on and on about this topic because I am, but I think it's really important for leadership to be keeping a finger on the pulse for how their employees are managing the work, because whether it's a calendar and a time blocking issue or the other side of that I've seen is a training issue. Issue and the team member either wasn't trained on how to actually move forward in their work. And so they get stuck and they hit a roadblock. And instead of pushing past, they might shut down on you and it might take them longer to move through that. 
 So you really have to get insight and ask your team members individually, maybe sometimes as a group, hey, how can I help you? Where are you feeling stuck? What can I do to support you? Because that's where you might find some either misalignment with what the priority is for them and their role. You might find that you didn't really train them well enough or that there is some type of. Time organization management that needs to be addressed. Maybe they're not adhering to your SOP and so it's taking longer and there are delays. 
 So there could be a couple of different factors there as well, but all really important as a leader to have an understanding that it's not simply that people don't want to do work or that they are feeling overworked. It could be a number of things and it's your responsibility to take care of your people and set them up for success just It's their responsibility to communicate and be that person who is taking ownership over their role and their work. 

 Rose | 23:17
Yeah, love that answer. Absolutely spot on. I think it depends on the team, depends on the environment, depends on the industry. And, you know, people should be allowed to disengage when it is appropriate. I wanted to move on to fostering inclusive work environments in the remote setting. How do we do that? How do we contribute to team success and innovation? 

 Rebecca | 23:40
Yeah, that can be another great challenge. We have a global team now, and it's just been so cool to have folks from other countries join the team. And one of the... Bigger priorities when helping them onboard was making sure they felt extremely integrated and a part of the team, no matter geographic location. And so we hired people who are comfortable working our Eastern hours, Eastern standard hours, and that goes for our whole US team too. 
 So we have folks who are in California, folks who are in New York and all the way in the middle, and then we have folks from around the globe. And so making sure they were comfortable and working those hours. Hours and making sure that they understood that was for a specific reason so that our clients can guarantee when we're at our desks, so to speak, and available. And that helps for better team alignment. 
 And then there's a balance between making sure that different cultures are celebrated. And even so far as Australia, you mentioned, has different working rules and regulations, making sure that we're in compliance with whomever we're hiring, and acknowledging the cultural differences too. 
 So some of our global team members celebrate different holidays, and they're not celebrating all the time. All of ours. 
 So instead of forcing them to take off during our holidays and missing their holidays, we're very mindful of that. And even some of those holidays are updated every year. 
 So we keep tabs on that. Making sure that people are not just sharing information, a little bit more about themselves, but asking and being curious, genuinely curious to get to know them. We had Mother's Day recently here in the US and it's Mother's Day in some other countries, same day around the globe. And so sharing different traditions, how we celebrate our moms and the mother figures in our life, whether it's Christmas or New Year's, whatever that holiday might be, maybe there are different recipes and foods that different team members like to eat and that can go for someone who is living out in California to New York. We all have different traditions. 
 So finding ways to come together and celebrate the differences and find where we align to, which is really great. And usually it comes down to those company values. And that's why we're all working at the same company, because we align on those values. And I think being curious and getting to know your team members and making sure they feel like they have a voice to Rose and that really goes for anyone. But if you are looking to foster an environment of innovation, it's really important for people to know that they can come and share feedback in a respectful way, right? There's still a reasonable, respectful way that I would certainly want to receive feedback. I'd be expected to give it reasonably and respectfully too. 
 So making sure you have that respectful environment and then fostering that innovation is making sure people don't feel like, They're going to be punished if they make a mistake. And I'm sure we've all been in some kind of situation in our work or our personal life where we feel like we can't make a mistake. But we are not perfect. We're flawed humans and practice makes progress. 
 So we have to really practice at finding ways of being resourceful, inventing new technology or new ways of doing something for that improvement. And I believe a lot of that not only starts with leadership, but the mindset of that Kaizen, how are we constantly, steadily improving? And so team members who are new or already acclimated to the culture and the environment, if they know that this culture celebrates gaining knowledge and trying new things and finding better ways to do something, For the betterment of our work and the value we give to our customers, our clients and each other, then it ceases to become about me inventing or innovating or. What I like, but more so how am I serving the work that we're doing, the team that we're doing that with and working with and the clients that we're helping to. But it's a, it can be a tall order for some folks and it certainly will be met with challenges right so having systems in place for even innovation and creativity. 
 Like I said, you can't really create in chaos, you have to have that structure, and even brainstorming situations, they can get a little out of hand. And if there isn't someone there to guide and to give that framework. 
 So having that I like to say simple systems because if you're looking to grow, the more complex your system, the more complicated it can be for team members to understand what's expected and how to move through that system. So keep your system simple so that scalable and offer that structure in that framework so that people know what's expected. Reduce, eliminate any of that anxiety around mistakes and failure and celebrate your people when people are coming up with new ideas and new. Interventions and new innovations, make sure that they get recognized for that because we can't motivate people. It's not possible for me to motivate you, Rose, but I can set you up in a condition and environment where your motivation is nurtured and you can carry that momentum forward. 

 Rose | 29:03
Absolutely. No, I think that you made some really valid points about, you know, holidays and celebrations, you know, in being, being able to do that in different ways and, you know, making sure that we are looking at fostering inclusivity into our workplaces, whether it's remote or in person, is really important, I think, because we're not all the same, you know, and we celebrate things in different ways and allowing for that within an organisation is so important, I believe. And, you know, it doesn't matter where you are and, you know, Be mindful that you're not fostering a an environment where people aren't included for whatever reason. And it's really important that we include people that are a little bit different from how we are personally and make sure that We are allowing them to be different in their own way. 

 Rebecca | 30:12
Totally. 

 Rose | 30:13
Now, if you want to find Rebecca, you can find her on LinkedIn at Rebecca Vickers. And tell me about your podcast, greatleaderspodcast.com. 

 Rebecca | 30:26
Yeah, so I started the podcast about a year ago, but I didn't really start recording episodes till about nine months ago. It's called Bad Bosses, Great Leaders. And we're not here to bash any of our bosses, past or present. We want to make sure that we're recognizing we all have the potential to be a bad boss. And we probably have been at some point. And even the folks that have led us in the past who maybe didn't do as great a job of it, they probably didn't have a good experience. Example set for them. 
 So we want to highlight the great leaders, the great behavior, and the practices that can make great leaders, and bring awareness to some of the toxic and negative environments or behaviors and attitudes that can make a work environment really stressful. And I would say you can take that into your personal life as well with your friends and family because we can be great leaders in our personal lives as well as our work lives. 
 So I love interviewing guests who are really crushing it in the leadership space who have a lot to say and can give some practical and really value-driven applications to how we can be better leaders in our own life. So we'll love for folks to check it out. It's greatleaderspodcast.com. I put out an episode every week roundabout, and I'm always looking for new guests, but I want to make sure that I'm adding value to anyone who's looking for that leadership role and aspiring to be a great leader too. 

 Rose | 31:52
And that there are, you know, There are so many questions. I guess criteria to be a great leader. And I think to be a great leader is different than being a manager, in my mind anyway. You manage people who's different. But to lead a team or to lead yourself, you have to have a certain level set of skills, I think, to be able to do that. And, you know, being a great leader is not micromanaging that's for sure. I think, you know, you, And you have to lead by example. I think that's really important. 

 Rebecca | 32:26
Absolutely. I heard someone say recently the difference between being a manager and a leader is really about managing work and tasks versus leading people. And so if you are in a position where you're responsible for people and their well-being and how they move through their own tasks, then you're absolutely right. We have to be there to serve them and to support them and remove the roadblocks for them so that they can do their best work. And Rose, that's where you're at. Where some of the pitfalls come into play because we might be really good at our job and doing the work and then get promoted and put into a leadership position and have no clue how to lead and support people really well. 
 So that's my hope and aspiration for the podcast that it can provide some of those folks who are just learning the ropes and taking it day by day, how to be a better leader and how to, we'll still use the term manage people, but work with people. And really collaborate with people so that it's for the health of the whole company, right? 
 So that they can feel really good about the support that they're giving. And for those folks that are managing tasks, it is no hard, no easy feat, right? It can be just as challenging and hard. 
 So providing folks who are considered managers with some tools to be leaders too, because I think everybody can shine in those roles. And like I said earlier, you know, We can be leaders of ourselves and that's where it starts with us. And how do we lead ourselves? How do we lead the work that we're doing? And we can start practicing today. You don't have to be responsible for people to do that. 

 Rose | 34:07
Absolutely. No, I totally agree with you, Rebecca. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today. And I look forward to sharing this episode with my audience and I'm sure that they will find heaps of value in what you've discussed with us today. 

 Rebecca | 34:22
Thank you, Rose. It's been a great opportunity. 

 Rose | 34:24
Bye for now. 

 Rebecca | 34:26
Bye. 

 Outro | 34:28
You've been listening to Talking With The Experts, hosted by Rose Davidson. Make sure you have a look at our back catalogue over at talkingwiththeexperts.com. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss out on any episode. We look forward to your company next time.