#603 Mastering Change: Operational Leadership Unlocked with Ron Crabtree

Welcome to Talking with the Experts, where we dive deep into the insights that fuel real business success. In this compelling episode, host Rose Davidson is joined by operational change strategist Ron Crabtree to explore The Critical Role of Operational Leadership in Driving Business Success.

Ron shares over 30 years of frontline experience in transforming organizations through strategic change. From healthcare to manufacturing, Ron has helped global enterprises improve processes, reduce waste, and embed sustainable growth strategies. A Master Lean Six Sigma Black Belt and founder of MetaOps™, he brings a wealth of practical tools, and a laser focus on results.

What makes this episode a game-changer? Ron unpacks a simple yet powerful formula for leading sustainable operational change—one that’s accessible to any business leader. Whether you’re struggling to implement improvements or preparing for organizational transformation, Ron’s insights offer clarity, structure, and confidence.

You’ll also learn about the fundamentals of Business Process Management (BPM), why so many operational changes fail, and how to ensure your strategies don’t just survive, but thrive in today’s unpredictable markets. Ron’s experience with reshoring and supply chain optimization will also be eye-opening for leaders navigating global uncertainties.

This is not just theory—it’s a masterclass in execution.

🔥 Ready to transform your operations from chaos to clarity?
Don’t miss this actionable episode filled with proven insights and leadership wisdom.

✨ CONNECT WITH RON

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roncrabtree/

Websites

MetaOps: https://metaops.com/

MetaExperts: https://metaexperts.com/

MetaPod: https://metaexperts.com/metapod/

#TalkingwiththeExperts #RoseDavidson #BusinessLeadership #ChangeManagement #ProcessImprovement #OperationalExcellence #RonCrabtree

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Transcript

Voiceover | 00:00
Welcome to Talking with the Experts. This is where we discuss great ideas to take your business to the next level. How do we know these ideas work? 
 Well, it's because we're talking with business owners who are using these ideas. Business owners who have years of experience and expertise. All things business by business owners And now, here is your host, Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:30
Hello, welcome to Talking with the Experts. I'm your host, Rose Davidson from rosedavidson.com.au. Today it's my great pleasure to introduce you to Ron Crabtree. And Ron is the founder and CEO of MetaOps and MetaExperts. And this was established in 2002. It's a master lean Six Figma blackmailed and certified supply chain transformation architect. Ron is an internationally recognized expert in business process, improvements. With over 30 years of experience, he has implemented Lean, Figma and supply chain methodologies across diverse industries, from automotive and healthcare to government and financial services. Ron's expertise extends to change management, facilitation and communications, making him a sought-after consultant for organizations seeking operational excellence and transformational growth. And today, Ron's going to be sharing with us the critical role of operational leadership in driving business success. Ron, welcome to Talking with the Experts. It's a pleasure to meet you. 

 Ron | 01:43
Yeah, thank you, Rose. It's an honour to be with you here today. 

 Rose | 01:47
Wonderful. So tell me, you know, with them. Business constantly changing. And poor or lead change efforts in operations, what is the... The benefits of having, you know, all these changes, operational changes. 

 Ron | 02:06
Well, there's a lot of benefits. I would like to describe it for organizations large and small as there are significant challenges that we all face to be successful as organizations. And there's a lot of things you could talk about, but in the current day and age, I actually have my own podcast called Metapod, and we kind of aim at manufacturing companies, but what we share and can bring subject matter experts in to talk about are those three common challenges that we face as businesses. And the first being relentless pressure to digitize, right? Digital transformation and digitization of work, all kinds of pressure on that. The other phenomena in North America and most other Western countries around the world is this phenomena called the forever labour shortage. As a matter of fact, the size of the workforce is not getting bigger. Depending on where you are, it's actually getting smaller every year. 
 So we have huge challenges for maintaining a workforce that's viable. And then the third thing we all share is this relentless pressure to do more with less. 
 You know, less transportation, logistics, materials, facilities, waste in our processes, etc. So these are really common issues that we face in every industry and businesses of any size. And so I kind of boil it down to those three things that are really a common thread. 
 You know, at the moment, we've got all the trade policy activities going on out of the Trump administration in the U.S., and that's creating all kinds of angst, you know, particularly around supply chain and the cost of doing business across borders in various countries. And it's a big challenge. And I have had the benefit over the years of working in just about every industry you can imagine. And there's a common theme, right? As leaders in organizations, it's our job to really understand where we're going as an organization, what we're trying to accomplish, what good looks like. 
 And then being the ombudsman, right? That the individuals who lead the organization toward that better future state. 
 Some of the things that are going on, of course, I mentioned the changes in trade policies. We've got things like competitive pressures, the need to innovate, bring things to market a lot faster. Customer demands, putting pressure on us to do better or they're going to take their business elsewhere. 
 You know, ESG, environmental safety, environmental, social governance mandates, I guess, driven a lot out of Europe. And the rest of the world needs to kind of count out of that a bit. Being the employer of choice to fight against this forever labour shortage problem is something we have to deal with. And embracing digital transformation, you know, one of the things I heard recently was a great quote is AI, you know, the end of everything and artificial intelligence, that's going to solve all our problems. And short answer is no, it's one of many things to consider in digital transformation. But the important quote I heard is, I wish I could get back to the sources. Worker with AI? Will outperform worker without AI. 
 So figuring out how to adopt and do that is really important. And you know, the list can go on and on. We're challenged by a lot of pressures that we need to lead as leaders. 

 Rose | 05:21
Absolutely, yeah, and, you know, In Australia here at the moment, there's a shortage of construction workers. So that's plumbers and carpenters and the like, because, you know, we're very short on houses, especially social houses for workers. The lower income earners and, you know, In years past, governments advocated for, you know, university study. That was the way to go. If you don't get a good degree, you won't get a good job. And that nears now to the detriment of the trades where we now need these tradies and, you know, we can't find them. And to try and get them from overseas, of course, there's, you know, hurdles in that. In that process as well. 
 So I can understand about, you know, job shortages and, all the things that are required to keep a business afloat and an economy afloat for that matter. And I do, I want to touch on, you know, business process management. 
 You know, why is it so important? You know, it, Why do we need it in a business? 

 Ron | 06:31
Well, let's just, before we jump into that, let's just make it clear that from my perspective, there's two crucial things that leaders own in organizations, okay? The first is setting the vision and determining the strategies for how we're going to implement change, you know, how we're going to adapt. Where are we going to be a year from now, five years, 10 years down the road? And we need to be adept at planning the changes and what needs to be different and get really clear about what good looks like. For the future. 
 So that's crucial. That's one of the core two things. And the second is we've got to be really good at leading the implementation of all the activities that we need to accomplish to improve our performance, whatever that may be. 
 So I'm going to assume that most of our listeners here today probably have a decent handle on their vision, where they want to go, you know, what they think good would look like for their organization and can articulate that pretty well. I think the biggest gap that I see for leaders, this is large companies and small, every industry, every function you can imagine. 
 You know, figuring out what to do isn't necessarily all that hard. You know, it's pretty easy to get help to do that. But figuring out how to do it, And make that a reality is the biggest gap that I see that's very common in all industries for leaders and managers, which kind of brings us to this thing called business process management fundamentals. And if this is new to you haven't really heard this much, then I'd put that on your bucket list of things you want to learn about, get good at here in the not too distant future. 
 So business process management is actually a pretty mature... You know, body of practice. And it's a systematic way to kind of analyze and optimize and improve on company processes and end to end, right? Not just very functional or very narrow task focus, but more on enterprise end to end focus and has key activities that are always involved. Discovery, you know, getting the information, understanding what the current state is, modelling, so you can do what-if analysis. Doing the in-depth analysis where the gaps are and what we need to do differently, then, of course, you've got to implement, right? Implementing the changes and then making that sustainable, right? By optimizing that and making it part of the fabric of your standard operating procedures and how you do things in the future. 
 So what's crucial here, you know, business process management is to understand the interaction of people. Process. And technology. Now I want to be really careful here to define they're in that order for a very specific reason. You Nowadays, with digital transformation, AI, and all that talk going out there, you think you've got to lead with technology, and it's unfortunately not that way. It's understanding what people need to do differently, skilling them up, leading them, and providing what they need to be effective is crucial. We have to understand the end-to-end process. 
 And then we have to understand the overlay of technology. So that's easy to talk about, but how do you do that? 
 So I'd like to share a little bit of a case study story that I think everybody in the audience could relate to, okay? So, the organization I was assisting, they make, they design, build, and install small buildings, right? Storage buildings, right? For your personal goods, for chemicals, and dangerous products, or whatever. 
 So, think about these metal, bulletproof storage buildings that last for 100 years. And imagine all the things you'd go through to actually design one of these buildings, right? You've got to get... 
 You know, site approval, you have to collaborate with many governmental agencies, you've got the actual customer, you have the site, you have drainage, you have all kinds of things you have to work through. So the challenge this organization was facing is that they were getting a lot of pressure from their customers to reduce the lead time. In other words, how long it takes to get to a finished design that they can approve was taking way too long. It was taking weeks or even months. 
 And then they were having lots of issues and mistakes in the process. So they would have a lot of errors and a lot of rework. And it was very frustrating. 
 So two big challenges. Had to do things a whole lot faster. We have to do it a whole lot better. And... We can't hire enough engineers, right? And salespeople to try to grow the business and So we had to figure out how to do an awful lot more with a lot less. 
 So the technique I'm going to describe, and I'll share a little case study story, you know, a real case study story of how that played out. Is we wanted to focus in on just the process of the initial customer contact, getting those, you know, the site drawings and all that stuff, all the way up to we're ready to release it for production, right? This would be production ready so that we can buy the materials and go ahead and kick off the manufacturing process, which was actually running quite well. It was that whole front end part that was a big challenge. 
 So we just focused on that and we use a technique called value stream mappings. And you can Google that and there's, thousands and thousands of stuff out there. 
 So I actually wrote the value stream mapping content in one of the books I co-author over the years. And I've developed and worked with 25 different methods of value stream mapping. But the technique that I found really good from a basic business process management perspective is to understand Three crucial things, right? What people do, what's going on in the process, and which technologies get touched, right? Okay, so you can imagine getting a giant piece of paper and putting it on the wall. I like to use what's called the swim lane map, where you create a lane for each function. 
 So imagine, we start with the customer, right? So we've got this lane flowing out from left to right. 
 And then we've got the sales force, and then we've got engineering, and then we've got third parties we have to deal with, like governmental agencies and engineering firms or whatever it may be. And then we start to say, so what happens, right? The phone rings, right? And we just start to map this out. But as we go, we're going to capture the customer. What's going on there? What's the activity or task? Who's involved with doing it? How often does it happen? Is it one time a year or 5,000 times a year? Because the velocity of the process is really important. How much time do we actually spend on that? That's the money we're spending. This is human effort time. 
 And then is there a delay of some sort? In other words, inbox delay. I send a request to the customer and I have to wait four days for them to come back to me, right? Or I send something off to another department with a question and I have to wait because it goes in their inbox and waits for its turn to be worked on. 
 And then what percentage of the time is it one and done? Right? What's the first time quality of that? And you give that a percentage. That we can actually do the task one time and be done, or wait a minute, we do this, but 50% of the time we have to stop. Go look for information that should have been there. We have to stop, go ask for questions. We find out we're missing something, and we have to go what's called a rework loop and loop back to it. 
 And then the last crucial thing, and this is very advanced, but every business needs to do this in the face of digital transformation. It's which IT systems and technologies are we interfacing with at each step in the process? Now, in this particular case, they had two organizations. You had the sales organization. They had 12 different technologies they worked with, you know, CRM, Outlook, email, AutoCAD, blah. 
 And then you had the engineering function. They had 16 different systems and technologies they would interface with to do their work. 
 So all in all, 28 different technologies across these two functions through the lifecycle of developing a production-ready design for an approved customer order to make one of these buildings. So you map all that out and you can dump it all into a spreadsheet. And I've got templates for all this. I'm happy to share. And basically, when you get done with that, you're able to do some pretty amazing things, right? First of all, you've got the maps, you can physically, you can step back and say, here's where it's going and all the different things that are happening. Hopefully along the way you captured some pain points, right? You had everybody talk about what makes them crazy about the process, right? Salesforce, the engineering, even production folks that's the recipient of the outputs. And you have them capture all those pain points. 
 And then you come back and kind of map in, okay, this is where that pain point really originates. You know, they're talking about down here at step 43, but the source of that is step two or step five. 
 And then you're able to do what's called the Pareto analysis. In other words, you can analyze because you throw it into a spreadsheet with data, you can very quickly analyze which of these, all these steps that take three to six months, right? And it takes hundreds of man hours for each order we're going to produce. Where is the meat in there, right? 
 So you can do what's called Pareto analysis, and you can calculate, okay, which 20% of all these steps make up 80% of the cost to human effort. Which 20% of the steps make up 80% of the time, like the most inbox delays, waiting for the responses, you can isolate those. Those steps have a high quality issue, meaning they're not right the first time. They have a high percentage of failure that causes them to go out and do rework loops. And you can look at those and start to map those against your pain points. The other crucial thing, this is really powerful in this case of this building manufacturing company, is which IT systems were primary. For each of those tasks. And which IT systems or technologies we're interfacing with were secondary, meaning If I have an issue, then I have to go look three or four other places. What are the other places I go look for or interface with? And we found out there was some real hot spots. There were certain... Technologies that got hit a lot. There were certain activities where, you know, get here, then I have to go, you know, I had to open another screen. Lots and lots of people doing the same thing. I might have to go and email and then wait for that, come back. And we started identifying where the hot spots were. And that led to some amazing innovation ideas. 
 Like, first of all, The sales force, right? They're trying to get it off to engineering really quick. 
 So they rush through the process. And get it pushed off to engineering only for them to struggle because they're missing the information we needed. 
 So we began to redesign the skills. In other words, more engineering skills up front. For the Salesforce. 
 And then we picked out over 28 systems, which five really need to be fully integrated. Because they were driving 80% of the stop, go, look problem. And so now we found out really which systems truly need to be integrated. We could leverage API interfaces or look at a different application, like the integration of AutoCAD information into Salesforce or CRM, being able to pull that through really early in the sales cycle and show that to the customer. Saved all kinds of issues later. When the engineers got their hand on it. And the net of that is huge aha, right? The guy that was running engineering at the beginning of the process, I said, look, we got to go from 16 weeks down to four. And he's like, it can't be done. And at the end of all that, he looks at me and goes, It is possible. But we have to completely rethink how we're doing things. 
 So as a leader, he had an epiphany around business process management, using value stream mapping as a technique to really understand the crucial lever points, right? The key places in the processes, the people, process, and technology. And that led them to, okay, how do we need to skill up people differently? What do the roles of the future look like? What do they need from a technology perspective to be effective? 
 And then from a process perspective, this is the ugly truth. What we need to work toward is a much smoother process with a lot fewer stops and go fixes and just let the process flow, right? 
 So we learned that we had to have some toll gates. For example, you wouldn't release it to engineering unless you had a really successful checklist of yes, I have all this. Because if we know we have all that, then the engineers can do their job right the first time. And it just led to all kinds of changes. 
 So that's really the nitty gritty of it. And I don't care how small your business is, you have processes. In fact, one of the great fathers of modern quality, D. Edwards Deming, used to have this saying, if you can't describe what you're doing as a process... You don't know what you're doing. And that's where the value stream mapping, swim lane mapping, some of these other techniques are really powerful. 

 Rose | 18:59
And I don't know what I'm doing because I can't explain it as a process. I suppose if I really sat down and thought about it, I probably could. But off the top of my head, I just do what I do because it's automatic. I think with a lot of jobs too, that's just the way it is. You've learnt it so well that it becomes an automatic process and you don't think to write it down for the next person to write to take on board if needs be. 
 So if you want to, you know, outsource whatever it is that you're doing for whatever reason, yeah, you can. Not writing it down is really a bad mistake. As a small business, any process should be written down. Just because you want to maybe outsource it someday. And so that's part of your, overall business process. Make sure that you've written everything down so that you can pass it on. And you're right. 
 I mean, so did these two companies, did they decide to make one system, say get rid of 28 and make one system? 

 Ron | 20:04
Well, it's a practical matter. They couldn't get rid of all of them. But they could streamline it considerably. And here's the thing about, you know, where do we focus and where do we improve is it's tempting to go fix everything. It's tempting to go document every single thing we do, right, with standard operating procedures. But the reality is you'll probably die of old age before you can do all that. 
 I mean, that's a lot of detail, right? So the trick, here's the real trick, is using tools like, you know, value stream mapping to get at what really matters. And what are the crucial parts of the process that need to be really tightly controlled. And really focus our efforts on making sure those are well documented. Here's a great example. If People making mistakes is a common problem, and we're continually hiring or pulling other people in to help us with stuff, and they're going to struggle, and it's impacting the business. 
 You know, how big of a problem is that? So you've got to quantify it. But once you've done that, then that really aims you at where do we need to have the tight SOP, standard operating procedures, And we're to really need to. Thoroughly document. How we do it and what a good process looks like. 

 Rose | 21:10
Boom. That all sounds really fascinating, Ron, but tell me there is a simple four part formula that successfully leads sustainable operations. How what is it and how can we integrate it into our business? 

 Ron | 21:27
Well, I've had the blessing to work with thousands of individuals over the years that were challenged with leading significant changes in their organization. And I mentioned earlier that what to do and where we need to go is usually fairly easy to figure out, and most professionals will know that. But the how to do it is a real gap, right? 
 So I came up with something years ago, a really smart person shared it with me, and I kind of built it out. And he just said, you know what, if we want to drive sustainable change, In other words, driver change sticks, right? The improvement stays with us, right? Supports ongoing continuous improvement. That there's a basic formula around the change. 
 So the first thing you have to do is get what's going to be different. What is it we're changing? And I'm going to give you the opportunity to participate here with an example. 
 So I'll let you play with me here in a minute. But basically, you get really clear about what's the change we need to accomplish in the organization? We don't know what we're like today. We don't want to be like this at some future point. 
 And then we have to work through a formula of what's the level of discomfort in the organization associated with the change, so the letter D for discomfort. The second thing is, how clear is our vision? How well communicated and articulated is that for the organization? 
 And then finally, The S would be skills. Do we have the necessary skills as an organization to successfully implement what it is we need to do. And what we do is we, as a leadership team, or ideally pull together a nice cross-functional team, we discuss these and we come up with a percentage to assign to each of those three factors. And you simply multiply those x% times x%. And voila, you get a... A factor, right? Sustainable change possibility factor. And this can be pretty darn ugly. 
 You know, if you say, Let's just start with the discomfort, right? People don't want the change, right? They love it the way it is now. There's no burning platform. There's no reason to do this. You would give that a low percentage, maybe 50%. 
 And then we take a look at the vision. How do people actually understand what it is we need to do and how we're going to do it? Do we have agreement around that? Is that vision really clearly articulated? 
 And then the third part is, do we have the skill? Well, let's just say we're only 50% of the way there on the vision. 
 And then we look at the skills, right? And we have 100% of the skills present. Or we have 1% of the skills present or some number in between. 
 So the phenomenon is you take 50% times 50% is 25. 50% time, let's just say you have 50% of the skill base is 12.5%. 12.5% likelihood of success. If you don't change anything about how you're tackling those challenges. 
 So do you have a business process in mind or a company you're familiar with where we could just play the game here together about that? Or should I just give you an example? 

 Rose | 24:23
Give me an example. I can't really think of anything off the top that I want to pick holes in. 

 Ron | 24:29
All right, well, I'm going to share a little mini case study. I was a presenting at an APICS ASCM international conference, American Production Inventory Control Society, now the Association for Supply Chain Management. They had about four or five hundred people in the room and they had handheld devices that they could record responses. 
 So I worked up this little exercise and the hypothesis, they were all, you know, supply chain professionals, they're all working in industry. It's like, okay, let's play the game together here and just pretend we're all going to implement lean manufacturing techniques and apply them in our supply chain operations. 
 So that's the situation. So I had the audience come together. I would allow them to pick different things they wanted to work on, but basically we went through the process. Okay, so with respect to implementing lean in our supply chain, do we have a high level of discomfort? This is all the different people and functions. That need to do differently. We had to decide if there was a burning platform there. 
 You know, people would really be interested in implementing lean. So, for example, if we're making lots of money as an organization, why would we want to change? 
 You know, we're doing just fine. We don't need to change. Do people not understand the competitive reality of what we're up against? If we don't change this, we're going to lose our jobs. Are people happy as things are today? 
 So the audience went through and came up with numbers for that, right? With their respective organizations. Then we said, okay, how clear is the vision? Can people articulate it? In other words, think about those people functions, right? All the individuals involved with making this change of reality. Do they actually understand what good looks like? Does the plan or the vision invoke action? Does each person really understand what it is they need to do? Or is it full of platitudes like, okay, we're just going to be the best. 
 Well, that doesn't mean anything, right? We've got very specific. 
 So imagine, you know, you've got to go all the way down to the person doing order entry and say, do you understand what this vision is? And can you articulate for me the three things you're going to be doing differently in the future? To allow this vision to be a reality. And if people don't understand... That's a problem, right? And you have to give that a percentage. 
 So I had the audience do that. And then finally, do we have the skills? 
 So the skills in this particular example is, you know, the basic understandings of Lean Six Sigma, value stream mapping, some of these techniques, how well do they understand it? They understand the basics of Six Sigma and statistical problem solving. The up-to-date and necessary supply chain skills for the future. The digital transformation, the digitization that's changing in supply chain. They're familiar with voice of customer and voice of process inputs into improving supply chain processes. They understand techniques like Target and Kaizen Kosti and going after the supply side management. Do we have a good code of honour for operating well together within these functions? 
 And then what about communication skills? You know, do we have adequate communication skills and leadership to be effective? And that's a lot, right? But those are all very specific around this sort of change, and the audience did the numbers. I got the data back and calculated the sustainable change factor. And surprise, see here, 85% of that audience, I agreed that they had less than a 30% chance of success if they didn't do something about those three challenges. 
 So here's what's really critical about that exercise as a leader or leadership team. Is if we've got a big gap on the discomfort, we have to address that. We have to be very adept at articulating and creating a burning platform, right? Why should we make this change? We have to go talk to people. We have to understand what's in it for them. We have to create a fire. And create pressure for that change. Second thing around the vision, you know, if your vision is not well articulated, then that's relatively easy to fix. But we do need to spend the time to communicate it, get it written down, sit down with people, make sure they understand it and what their accountabilities and responsibilities are. And if we don't have the skills, here again, relatively easy to fix, but never very fast. It takes quite a while to train up people to learn the necessary skills and do the things they need to do in the future. 
 So that's a really powerful but simple exercise, and I'm happy to share that little template with anybody who'd be interested in that as well. But we've got to be good at leading sustainable change. 

 Rose | 28:59
Absolutely. And, you know, as a good leader, you need to be able to, I guess, be and articulate the things that you need and using that formula I think is a great way to be able to articulate the things that need to change within the business. 

 Ron | 29:20
Correct. And the more specific you can be about the change, the better. In other words, you know, don't start with a really grandiose, you know, we're going to grow market share by 50%. You got to drop down, say, 100%. Very specifically, what is it we're changing? In this particular example, adopting Lean Six Sigma techniques to improve supply chain performance and having people do things differently to leverage that. Was reasonably specific, but the more specific you can get, the better. 

 Rose | 29:49
Absolutely. And I totally agree. Now you can find Ron on LinkedIn and at Ron Crabtree, metaops.com and metaexperts.com and metaexperts.com Metapod, which is his podcast. And what do you specifically discuss on your podcast, Ron? 

 Ron | 30:11
Yeah, the three common challenges that organizations, you know, grapple with, the forever labour shortage, digitalization, digital transformation of work, and Needing to do more with less. And in my podcast, I invite thought leaders, our customers, our partners, our... Are in our meta experts community of experts that we put to work with customer solving problems. They're all, you know, part of this thought leadership community that comes together. 
 So if you've got some good stuff that you think you'd like to share, maybe you could be a guest on my show. 

 Rose | 30:40
Wonderful. Now, yeah, I'll give that some thought, Rod, I will, and I will let you know. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience today, Ron, before we go today? 

 Ron | 30:54
No, just a final thought that, you know, for leaders. You know, leading change and driving better performance in organizations is a very personal thing, right? 
 So we have to, you know, really take a good look at ourselves and say, am I clear about what I want? Am I being effective with leading the change? And am I exhibiting the right behaviour? Right. And that's a whole other conversation around, you know, the behaviour side of leaders. But it's a very personal thing for leaders. 
 You know, my behaviour needs to be congruent. With what I'm asking for. 
 So I need to be really good at explaining it, defining it, and then giving people what they need to be effective. 

 Rose | 31:37
Absolutely, and I think, you know, a lot of people – don't understand what a leadership role is they think you know management and leadership are the same thing but they're not they're two different candles official together and I think if leaders want to lead I think they've just got to do what you suggested and you know lead by example because if you can't lead by example then how you expect your team to you know pick up on anything that you want them to do. 

 Ron | 32:09
Bye. 

 Rose | 32:10
Absolutely. Ron, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing with us today. And I look forward to having a conversation perhaps sometime in the future. 

 Ron | 32:20
Sounds great. Thank you so much. 

 Rose | 32:22
Thank you. Bye-bye. 

 Voiceover | 32:23
You've been listening to Talking With The Experts, hosted by Rose Davidson. Make sure you have a look at our back catalogue over at talkingwiththeexperts.com. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss out on any episode. We look forward to your company next time.